Jen Harbin - The Pearl of Grit.org

We interview Jen Harbin, co-founder of Grit.org sits down with previous Grit University interns and talks about her journey of growing up in south Florida, doing crew at University of Florida, her summer sales career in college, and navigating being a mom of 3 boys, Grit University mom, running Grit Camp each summer and much more. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6JtevtY6n8

Colby Harris: Welcome back to the Grit.org podcast!

I'm your honorary host for the day, Colby Harris. Good to see everyone again, accompanied by none other than the GRIT founders themselves, Brian Harbin. Jen Harbin here, and Kevin Butler as well, former great university intern as well. Super excited to be here today, talking about Jen, her backstory, her upbringing, how all this came together, her and Brian's story, her life as a mom and as GRIT Camp mom, as we always say, throughout the summer. So excited to share this other half of the with you today. 

Before we open it up do want to thank our sponsor, Escrow.com. With over 7 billion in protected transactions, Escrow.com is the world's most secure online payment method. From automobiles to electronics, business sales and more, Escrow.com makes it easy and confidently conduct your business online. Visit Escrow.com today to learn more about how you can achieve trust, security, and certainty in every transaction. Thank you, Escrow.com, for being a part of the show and servicing all of our businesses. Greatly appreciate you!

So, Jen….

Jen Harbin: What's up, Colby?

Colby Harris: We've been talking about this long enough. I'm excited. We finally made it happen. You avoided it for long enough. We scheduled it, and then I double scheduled it, skipped it, canceled it. I had to redo the whole thing at my own... in my own fault. So glad we're finally here today.

Jen Harbin: And it was God's timing, I think, because I couldn't imagine having done this without the two of you here. I told him that. I was like, I will do this on one condition, that Colby and Kevin can both be there. So however long that takes, in whatever capacity it is, that's my... that was my only request.

Colby Harris: Well, we're here. I know when I said, hey, Jen, I'm really sorry, I totally messed this thing up, we're going to have to push it. You're like, oh, push it back. Push it back as long as you need to. We push it back forever, but…..

Jen Harbin: Push it back for a decade, that's fine.

Colby Harris: Lo and behold, we're here today, so super, super excited. And thanks for having us both with you as well to kind of walk through this together. And so I know you grew up in South Florida, a place that I personally really love. And I want to hear a little bit about being in Jacksonville now long enough. Like, tell us just about growing up South Florida, you know, your family life, the ins and outs of being Jen, back in the day, and anything that really stood out, you know, I feel like shaped you at that time.

Jen Harbin: Well, I loved growing up in South Florida. I think it's just such a beautiful place. I feel very blessed that I was raised in such an environment where I had access to so many cultural and educational institutions. I really feel like I just learned a lot growing up there. And although I love raising my family here in Jacksonville, I fell in love with this place when we got here.

But before I talk about my childhood, I did want to touch on my parents, who... my mom grew up in Indiana. Muncie, Indiana. My dad grew up in West Palm Beach, Florida. So he's a South Florida guy. And my mom is the baby of four. My dad is the oldest of three. He's the only boy, and he's no longer with us. He passed away around 10... about 10 years ago of lung cancer. But what is wild about my parents is that when they were both young teenagers, their moms both died of cancer. Different cancers.

So my grandmother, Marian, my father's mom, was 45 when she died. My dad was 20. So young adult. And my mom's mom died when she was 42. My mom... she died actually two days before my mom's 16th birthday. So they buried her on her 16th birthday.

And the reason I bring that up is because, you know, now that I'm 47, I feel... I feel so young. I'm, you know, joking with Brian about, like, one day when we have grandkids. Like, now that my kids are getting older, I'm putting away some of their toys, you know, the train set and the little people that I'm gonna bust out with later on when I'm a grandmother. And I just can't even comprehend, you know, them not having me around at this age. And I can't imagine, like, how that... what that did to my mom. Imagine you're 16 years old, or you get, you know, 20 years old as a man losing your mom.

And both of my grandfathers, you know, subsequently remarried, as you did back in that day, you know, you didn't stay single for very long when you have kids to raise. And so they did have a stepmom and then stepsisters and brothers. And so when I was a kid, I did have kind of step grandmothers. But at any rate, I really feel like that formed, you know, something in my parents.

My mom wanted to get out of Muncie, Indiana. This is the early to mid-70s. And so she had a little bit of... probably a rebellious streak, ignited as the baby, you know, whose mom had passed away. So she met my dad in the fun of the 70s, right? And so they were kind of hippies, and they got married. My mom had a little bit of a belly in the wedding photos, as you did back in the day. I was a bit of a surprise, shall we say?

What I really commend them for, you know, they didn't have to do that. And they decided, you know, she decided, well, all right, let's go. So they got married. That did not last very long. I don't remember them ever being married. They got divorced when I was around 2, you know, but they gave it a go, right?

And I do remember they each got remarried. So my... as young as I can remember, I remember my then stepdad being around and he's still with us. I won't say him in the past, but he was just the greatest man. And my mom and my stepdad got married a few years later. He always treated me like his daughter. He and my mom had a son, my little brother C.J., and so they were married for a long time.

My dad subsequently remarried. At the time, when I was young, my dad suffered from addiction on and off for years and years and years. And he lived at the time with my aunt, his baby sister. She's the middle one, and her husband, my Uncle Roger. And they had a big house, and so he actually lived with them because my parents had joint custody of me. And even though it was a non-typical nuclear family, I don't remember there being... they always got along. There was never any fighting. My childhood was definitely filled with an abundance of love. There was none of that. So it didn't seem like a big deal to me that they weren't together.

And so my dad lived with my aunt and uncle, and I would go visit them. That was kind of like my other family. And I remember my dad at some point ended up moving to Ohio, met a lady there and was engaged to her. And this is kind of just sort of a picture of what my family was like growing up. So at one point they were gonna move down back to West Palm Beach to get their own place. And so there's me, my mom, my stepdad, my little brother living together, okay. And who moves in with us is my dad.

For a brief period of time, like two weeks, maybe a month, my dad, his fiancée, her son, her twin daughters, her sister, her son and her daughter all move in with us. And I remember it being not a big deal, like, this is not weird. And my stepfather was like, yeah, sure, they can come stay here. I mean, can you imagine if some of our relatives just said we need to bring a whole crew of people? I'd be like, we... you know, so... right? Maybe we'll go help you guys look for a VRBO nearby. I don't know about everyone staying here. And they did. And it was just like that was who my stepdad was. That was my family dynamic.

You know, at Thanksgivings and Christmas Eves, my parents who weren't married, their new spouses, my aunt and uncle who were like my second parents... and we'll get into that a little bit... they were all at our house. And there was no... even though you would kind of classify it as dysfunctional because it wasn't your typical family setup, it wasn't weird. Like, I just thought that was completely normal. And they all treated each other so well. And I don't know, maybe they hid it, but I never got... I never got any passive-aggressive vibes or any of that. Seemed like we just have a big old family.

And so I feel very blessed that that was my childhood. Unfortunately, or not really unfortunately, because their lives went on to do great things. They both ended up divorced again. So my stepdad and my mom did get divorced. He has remarried a really lovely lady since then. And so I'm actually really glad that they did that. And then my dad and my stepmom did get divorced as well. So, you know, they kind of continued on their paths and everything.

And I will say that my childhood really was filled with so much joy and love and just experiences. And what my parents... my mom did suffer from some addiction as well. She's been sober for over 35 years now. And she will give all credit to God and Alcoholics Anonymous and working the steps daily, monthly, over and over again. I'm just so proud of her. I mean, it's just incredible. It's really miraculous what she's accomplished. And I just feel very grateful that that was my upbringing.

And, you know, if anything, what my parents were lacking that I didn't get from them was coping mechanisms for how to handle stress or the habits… like forming the habits that you need to be successful or you need to reach your full potential. They were both really smart. They just didn't have the habits built. And so I didn't really get that from them.

And fortunately, where I grew up, everyone around me valued education, like the school that I went to. So... sorry. So we'll back up. So... okay. So when I was young, they sent me to this really itty-bitty Montessori school. And if you know anything about Montessori schools... I kind of joke they're a little bit granola, you know. And it's a really cool learning mechanism where you have different ages of kids teaching each other by working together.

And so it's not your typical, like, fill out this worksheet and then do a test. You know, you might be already past some... you might already be past this skill. And so you don't have to sit with the rest of the class and do that. You might need more work on this skill, so you can sit... it's very sort of tailored to the child.

And I still had tests and all those kinds of things, but it's very much sort of self-guided learning within boundaries. And so the school that I went to, it's called Poinciana Day School. It used to be called Unity back in the day, and then they changed it to Poinciana Day School. I had six kids in my eighth-grade class, two of which were boys, both of which I'd known since I was like eight years old. So it was really, really tiny. But it was just a great, great school.

And then pretty much almost all of us went to Suncoast High School, which is very similar to Stanton or Paxson. So I was in the IB program there at Suncoast, which was a much, much bigger school. But before I got there, when I was younger... you asked me about growing up in South Florida. And I love this question that Brian asked — early sports — which is very, very sweet because he thinks that I'm an athlete, which is very kind. And he has been good at every sport he's ever tried.

Okay, so when I was a kid — no sports. There were no sports. I was very creative. I really liked performing arts.

Colby Harris: So you had to have something like outlet and everything. You're saying, I'm over here and I'm like, yeah, had to have something going on to cope in a way, like you said. Right? Like what are the things that you put your mind to outside of the... I think. Am I allowed to say like dysfunction?

Jen Harbin: Oh yeah, you can say dysfunction because I say it with love. Like it was, it was dysfunctional, you know, and filled with lots of love. Like no... dysfunction yet. Loving.

Colby Harris: It's like crazy. Just crazy.

Jen Harbin: Like, just crazy. I joke about our family as like joyful chaos. Like joyful chaos for sure.

Colby Harris: But 13 people in a house.

Jen Harbin: Yeah.

Colby Harris: It's like, okay, I hear from my cousin, my stepmom, my mom, my stepdad or dad one more time, I'm going to lose my top.

Jen Harbin: Yes, right? And family's like your place. You let it all out and you, you know... yeah, we'll get into the family.

Colby Harris: So what were the things that you did? I... sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I knew you had to have something forever. Yeah, GRIT camp, we've seen enough of, like, Jen, jump in. Jump in. It's like, no.

Jen Harbin: There was one sport I was good at which we'll get into, which really did form me as well. So when I was a kid, I loved being outside. I loved the water. I loved the beach, you know, the pool. I loved... loved being outside. I, you know, tried this. I was... no sports. Nothing with, like, if I have to kick a ball or throw a ball or catch it. None of that. Even Red Rover, I was like, oh, that looks like it's gonna hurt. I don't know about that. But I loved dance. I did tap and jazz at our little school. And I remember I thought it was so cool because we... my teacher, Ms. Mary Jane — that was really her name — who was her husband?

Kevin Butler: Peter Parker.

Jen Harbin: Probably most likely. You picture, like, a dance teacher in the 1980s. I mean, she looks exactly like you think she looks. And I think she's still alive because she seemed to be like this mythical creature. And we would do these fun dances where we had, like, jump rope. We would do tap numbers with jump rope. And we did this one, I remember, where we got on top of a stool and we did a number up there. We climbed out... you know, it was just really fun.

I loved dance. I played the piano. I played the flute. I loved that. I loved being in the plays. Like, I really enjoyed that. I think I did have a certain amount of talent, like God-given talent to perform and act and stuff. Can't sing a note. I've always tried, avoided every time. Every time I'm in the church office, they always try to think, why don't you join the choir? I'm like, no. They're like, you blend in. I'm like, oh, no, no, no. That even blending in is too much. I'm a lip syncer. So no singing of any kind.

But I loved all that kind of performance-type stuff, so that's really what I did as a kid. And then as I got older... when I was in high school, I played sports, but I was terrible at them. So my friends were just these wonderful people who were good at different sports, and so I just tagged along with whatever they did. So my friend Stephanie's like, let's play soccer. I'm like, great. She was amazing. And I ran up and down the field on the soccer team and kind of sat the bench the rest of... and I was fine with that. Like, I was completely happy to run up and down the field, and that was it.

I swam. I was okay. You know, the Bulls Sharks were not recruiting me to swim for them, let's just say. But I enjoyed it. I loved being in the water. And what else did I try? No, I mean, in high school, I guess I was mostly involved in theater. I was like a theater nerd, which was fun.

And then when I went to UF — which, and funny enough, that was like my safety school back in the day. And I wanted to go to DePaul University, which is ridiculous because it's in Chicago. I mean, it's like, thank goodness. I couldn't afford to go there — thank goodness. But they had a really great conservatory theater program, and I was gonna be an actress. That was like my dream when I was a kid, you know?

Colby Harris: So what was it that kind of made you want to do that?

Jen Harbin: Well, it was... it was... oh, I just always loved acting. Like, I enjoyed just being in the plays, and I really enjoyed being in a funny role. So, like, in high school, we did this production of Snow White, and I loved being the evil queen because I just thought it was a great way to... you know, because you have little kids coming to see you, and you make it just big and make it so ridiculous that they laugh at her. And then, you know, when she gets stuff happening to her, you like playing... and they love seeing you go down and all that kind of stuff.

So I just really enjoyed that. That was kind of like my favorite hobby, I guess you could say. And in school, I really did love learning as a kid. Like, I really enjoyed school. I loved math — which is hilarious. Math and theater, I loved. I know. And I'm not an engineer. Like, my brain is... there's no way I could be an engineer, even though math, my entire academic career, was my favorite subject. I would take that to be sort of my easy A, because it just made sense all the way through, even in college.

But I never did anything with it. But when I got to high school or when I got to UF... So DePaul was way too expensive, thank goodness that it was. And even I remember — backing up — when I was in a play, when I was Ms. Hannigan in our little Annie play, there was a man who came over from Palm Beach to watch it, and my mom told me about this years later. He reached out to her and was like, I'd like to work with your daughter, try to have her go on auditions. I'd like basically to see if she could have some kind of childhood career in this.

And she never told me this, and I'm so glad that she didn't, because at the time, as a nine-year-old, I would have for sure been like, oh, we should do this. And as an adult — I think she told me when I was, I don't know, maybe in college — and I'm so glad she didn't, because the road that that would have... I don't know that I would have had the... and I know many kids now who are teenagers that are very talented in the performing arts, especially some of Stone's friends. And they are very grounded, centered people with a real sense of self that if they pursued that, I would not be as concerned. They have a really good support system, and I feel like they could do that while balancing the pressures of what that life is like as a performing artist of any kind. And I don't think I would have been able to do that.

I can't imagine what route my life would have gone. So I'm so grateful that God kind of protected me from that, and my mom was like, we're not gonna go that route. That was a really good call on her part.

But anyway, I got to UF. I went to my safety school. And all I did was, you know, you apply, whatever. And I was able to go there pretty much at the beginning, at least for free, because I had... there's the Florida Academic. I was in IB, so if you get relatively good grades, you get tuition. I also had a one-time Pathfinder scholarship, it was called. It was an award for theater. And so there was that. So I was able to go there. And the first time I'd ever been there was when I went to go tour it — to move in. And I'm sure that a lot of people go do tours, but…..

Colby Harris: How many of y'all going on with Stone?

Jen Harbin: Like, we've gone on so many tours. I didn't go see any place. I was like, that's where I'm going to college. I guess I'll see you when I get there. And I mean, I'm glad we're able to take him to get a sense of what places are like, because there's so many different... like Stetson. I mean, just these different... they're so different.

Colby Harris: You just showed up.

Jen Harbin: Yeah. Yeah. I was like...

Kevin Butler: When you say safety school, it's just like you apply and you're like, okay, I'll go here. Well, walk me through how you got to that decision. I mean, you got FSU — go Noles.

Jen Harbin: True, true. Well, keep in mind, you know....

Kevin Butler: Why would you want to be a Gator?

Jen Harbin: It was... keep in mind, you know...

Kevin Butler: Why not a Dawg?

Jen Harbin: Yeah, I know. I can't believe I didn't apply to the University of Georgia. I should have. I mean, for sure I would have got in there, right? Don't you think?

Colby Harris: Oh, d***.

Jen Harbin: Oh, just kidding.

Kevin Butler: Back in the day would have saved you some...

Jen Harbin: I mean, well, it was a lot. I mean, it was easier to get in, let's just say. And most of my friends from high school — the majority of them went to really, you know, they went to Harvard and Princeton, Vanderbilt, Columbia, Brown, Cornell, Duke. Like, I remember thinking... and a lot of my other friends that were also extremely intelligent that went to UF or FSU or NYU, they were very successful there as well. It's just I remember thinking, like, oh, I'll just go here. I don't really know. I didn't really... I guess I was kind of bummed I wasn't going to go to the school I wanted to go to.

But I can't... can you imagine me living in a cold... I mean, I would have... I would have lost my mind. It would not have been a good fit for me is all I'm trying to say. And so I was just so grateful when I first got there. It was a bit of a shock, for sure, like it is for most college students. You get there and you all of a sudden realize, oh, you're really on your own. And adult things can happen here and there, and it's just a little jarring at first.

Then you kind of find your people and you find your way. And that's how I got into crew. Hilariously enough, again, I was not a super athlete.

Kevin Butler: You keep saying you're not an athlete, but you're playing every sport in high school. Then you go do crew.

Jen Harbin: I mean, I kind of sat the bench in high school. Like, I was there, but they were... you know, my coach is like, all right. All right, Manguson, come on. You've been on the field long enough. Let's go. That was my maiden name, Manguson. My friends call me Manga — which I think is some kind of Japanese anime or something. I didn't know this till later, but like, Manga Magnet. Yeah.

Colby Harris: You look like Magnum PI right now.

Jen Harbin: I do. Today I'm like, I need to wear something now. You know, my normal attire is like, some shorts and a tank top and a sports bra. I was like, do I look like I'm the president of Cuba in this? I don't know.

Colby Harris: No, I don't. This is my homage to South Florida.

Jen Harbin: I feel like, you know, I was feeling tropical.

Colby Harris: I agree with Kevin, though. I think that you're like... you downplay it, too, because you're a dancer. Like, all these different pieces. I mean, those... some of the best athletes, in my opinion. Like I said, I used to know so many girls that were gymnasts/dancers because they just coincided so...

Kevin Butler: Well, I mean, good point.

Jen Harbin: I shouldn't have said not athlete. I just... anything. I don't want to make that joke. Anything with a ball or stick. But anything where there's catching or throwing or any hand-eye coordination, foot-eye coordination — I didn't really have that. And I'll be... I was kind of a wimp with pain. I remember watching Max at 7 years old — we were playing here — he's playing just basketball and him diving for the ball with no regard of, like, if I'm going to hit my face onto the ground. And I kind of would wince away from stuff like that.

But rowing a crew race was a different kind of pain that I really... you got into. So... okay. So sorry. Should I talk... what should I... I'll stop and — crew. Okay.

Colby Harris: So get into it.

23.40

Jen Harbin: I got into crew because — and at UF, it's not a varsity sport, so it's a club sport. Now, having said that, the schools that we race against are all varsity schools. So you're racing against University of Miami and all these really good schools. So you still go, you practice and work out like it is a varsity. But I wasn't getting recruited.

So I went out — in my dorm, Mallory Hall — my dorm, like next-door neighbor, she goes, hey, I saw this thing for this crew, you want to come with me? And I was like, okay, sure. And I went out there and I'd never done it in my life. And all we did for the first month was land training. So we just ran. We did, you know, push-ups and sit-ups and mountain climbers and squats and jumpies and lunges. That was all. I mean, we saw the boats and we saw the stuff, but we weren't even allowed to get on the boat for a long time. That’s all we did.

And I was honestly like, this coach — this guy — he was so intimidating. He was like, all right, be back here tomorrow, five o'clock. I was like, yes, sir. So I was like, well, I better show up. Not that he was going to come to my dorm and track me down, but in my mind I was like, I got to be there. So I just kept going back. I was terrified not to. And it was so cool because I was like, hey, I'm actually doing this stuff that I never knew I could do.

And then we got onto the barge — which is like a boat in the loosest sense. It's like a city block wide. It's not going to tip over. You're learning to row and there's oars on each side. So you're learning the mechanics of how to just use the oar before you even get on the actual shell, which is extremely typical. So we get out there and I don't know how to explain it — I just fell in love with it. My body fit the mechanics of it. I'm kind of tall and lanky, and I really did for the first time just push myself past what I thought I physically could do.

Because I wasn't, you know, I mean, they're right there in your face and they're like, give me more. You're like, okay. And so you do. And it was just... sorry, I'm like — it was the best experience ever. Like, those were my people. My freshman year and then throughout college as well. Because you're out there every day.

My first year you're a novice, so you have practice in the afternoon. And then the rest of the years you're varsity, so you practice... you have to get up at 4. You practice early before school. And those are the people that you're with every day. And it was really cool because — just like any kind of sport, like a team sport — you gain so much, as you guys know: delaying instant gratification, team, all that stuff.

And it was a great thing to do, I think, my freshman year too, because there wasn't really a lot of room to go out and get into any nonsense. Because we used to joke like, I can't, I have crew. Like, people would ask you this or that...

Kevin Butler: You wanna go party? You wanna go do this?

Jen Harbin: There's no. And, you know, there's a little enjoyment with the crew team after, like a race. But, yeah, there was some grit built like there was no. The next…. You know, my sophomore year, I rushed. And I remember when I loved the girls in the Theta house. They were just so cool. Very. Like, just all different kinds of girls. You know, we had like, UF cheerleaders and then girls who were starting the, like, now group on campus. Like, we are women heroes. Roar. Like, you had it all, right? You know, you had everybody in there.

And I remember vividly because I had crew. I lived in the house one year because I didn't get a chance to spend a lot of time with them, which was kind of a bummer. I could have, but I would have just gotten no sleep. So there were lots of times I didn't go out with them. But then when I would go, I was the designated driver because I had to be up at 4:00 in the morning. And so I would be the friend that the girls need.

But, you know, let's just say maybe the guys weren't a big fan of me, you know? So I was that voice of reason. Like, hey, girl. It's like 12 o'clock. And I know you think he's really cute and charming, but it might be because you had an extra lemonade and he's really not. And you know, I remember he's like, fraternity. He'd be at, like, fraternity houses and they'd be like, who's the wet blanket? Can we get her out of here? You know? So they weren't really fans of me. Well, except one fraternity guy is a fan of me. Right? But I would. That was kind of my job.

And then I remember there were so many nights I would be sitting outside because I didn't have a car in college. So I would get picked up from the Theta house. And I'm sitting there and it's. I mean, it's like 04:15 and everybody's coming in from going out and they're like, magazine. What's going on? Look at you and your sneaker, you know, and they're all excited, you know, they're very, very happy. Had had a good night. And I'm like, what's up, y'?

Kevin Butler: All?

Jen Harbin: You're doing great. And then I'd be getting picked up, like, they're coming in, I'm going out. So that was a fun memory, but it did. It just built that discipline of, you know, there was. I could honestly say I…. There was never a time that I would look back on any of those decisions that, you know, I can't. I have crew that I would look back and, God, I wish I had done that other thing. Like, not even for a millisecond, ever.

Kevin Butler: And maybe in the moment.

Jen Harbin: In the moment, yes. And in the moment, I want to….

Kevin Butler: Go to grog and. Yeah.

Jen Harbin: Yes, I want to go to grog house. I want to go to the swamp.

Kevin Butler: Close it down.

Jen Harbin: They did.

Kevin Butler: Yeah, they closed.

Colby Harris: No. Oh.

Jen Harbin: Or the swamp. I heard the swamp is like something different too now. That was like the main. That was like the main Greek hangout was the swamp. That was like the out. You know, which you could tell because it was like, you know, there's like the. The college bar scene, and then the swamp had, like, wood floors and, like a veranda outside and all that. You know what I mean? But there was…. There was…. Even though I didn't regret any of it, there was not one morning that the alarm went off that I was like, it's a great day. Like, that was before I had sold books. There was no, like, it's gonna be a great day every day. I was like, oh, this sucks. But you know that there is a boat of….. There are people waiting. And what's crazy about crew is... this is even like a... even bigger system of accountability. If everyone…. If there's…. Okay, so there's boats. There's different sizes of boats. Who's going to carry the boats? And guess what? If you're not all there, you're not carrying that boat. And let's say you're in an eight, okay? Which is nine people, because you have a coxswain that is steering it and doing all the very important stuff that no one really knows about.

Jen Harbin: So when seven people show up, you can't really row a boat with seven people. So if you get up and you get to practice and you run your two mile warmup or a mile and a half warmup, and you do everything and someone doesn't show up, you are not happy with them.

So every morning you're thinking like, you know, if there was ever a day you wake up and you're like, did I oversleep? You panic because you picture everybody at the boathouse in the dark, like, all right, where is she? Because by the time you call somebody to get there is, like, too late. And so….. And sometimes you would rescramble and do different. You know, okay, we're gonna take a four out and three, you guys are gonna go in the launch. But if you're, like, practicing for a race, I mean, you need to be there practicing.

And one of the things I remember, I mean, there's so many things I could go on about crew and how amazing and character building it is. I remember one of the things that my coach said all the time is races are not won on race day, especially at practice. They are won right now when there's nobody here cheering for you. And crew isn't exactly a huge spectator sport anyway. The very end, you get people cheering, but most of it is just you and your boat. And that has stuck with me all the time. It's all those things leading up to it.

Colby Harris: Yeah, I feel like this was a good... pre approach to then getting into selling books, of course, door to door and going through that whole... process. And funny enough, now, like, me and Kevin and obviously Brian being in sales, I'm pretty excited to talk about this one. I've never done door to door.

So tell me, when someone... what sort of sales skills would I need to have to go up to you and say, hey, do you want to work six days a week, 12 hours a day, work door to door? People tell you, cuss you out every day. Like, how did someone close you on that? And then what do you feel like? The first thing, some of the good pieces were... outside meeting Brian. We'll jump into that in a second.

Jen Harbin: But that was my biggest gift out of it.

Colby Harris: Getting into this whole thing. Because if you called me tomorrow, you'd have to pay me a lot of money to do this.

Jen Harbin: I will say it did help, a friend of mine from soccer who was good at soccer, Bobby Martin. We were at UF together. She was a microbiology major at the time and called me up and she's like, hey, girl, you want to hear about this job I had now? She….. That year of the first years was, like, number three in the company and made, like, $20,000. So it was easy for her to get me to an information session.

She said, you want to come check out this job I had? And I was like, yeah, I'll come check out that job. And so I went in there. Brian Ross held our interview, who was Brian's sales manager at the time. And now they're just really good friends, he and his wife Lisa, who... I'll get into that in a minute... live here in Jacksonville, and they have super sweet kids who work at gritcamp. And so I went in this interview, and he. I mean, he sold me hook, line, and sinker. I remember within the first three minutes of him talking, I didn't even know what the job was. I was like, all right, whatever this guy, whatever he's talking about, I want to do this. I didn't even know what it was.

And then he gives you all the details of what it is, and you do find out, and there, you know, there's a big sales pitch for it. And yet they are transparent about what you're doing. There was no mistake that I would be going to sell books door to door in a different part of the country, and that this was 100% commission, and I might make money. I might not. But if you do, if you're coachable and you have a good attitude and you commit, that you probably will.

And I really was afraid of the rejection. Like, the rejection aspect, for sure. I thought, oh, I love talking to people. I mean, I think I'll be good at that. Ironically, later, my closing percentage was terrible because I would talk so much and talk over people and be like, you don't like it? Okay, that's fine. I didn't leave, but I would sit down with so many people, and I wouldn't give up on going to the next door. When somebody said no.

That's why I was successful, because I completely bought into being coachable, having a good attitude and committing to the schedule and working. You know, it's your own business. It's your own hours. Like, if they said, you're going to start working now and you're not going to stop until this time, no one's there to confirm you're doing it. This is 100% you. And I was like, well, I can do that. And I did that. And the law of averages kicks in, and if you really do commit to those principles, you will be successful.

And, you know, there's lots of things that are going to happen to you. And I'm so grateful for all the things that happen selling books that I, you know, all the things I tried to prepare myself for and that the students, managers and organizational leaders and sales managers prepared me for.

And then all the things are like, there's going to be a whole bunch of stuff we've never even seen that's going to happen that you need to just be ready for. And they were right. And, I mean, the people that were alongside with me, the people that led me, the people that I got to, you know, teach, are just some of the greatest people ever. Like, I know if I needed something, if one of them called me, I would. I'd be there, like, a hundred percent. I'm sorry. I know. Oh, gosh…. Oh, my gosh.

Colby Harris: I gotta jump in here too, because that first summer, you made $16,000. But one thing that you did that I never experienced selling books, which was crazy, was the fact that you didn't have a car, so you literally walked.

Jen Harbin: Oh, that's right.

Colby Harris: Door to door.

Jen Harbin: They drop me off.

Colby Harris: Single day now.

Kevin Butler: They got like, yeah, bipedal scooters that they just ride around.

Jen Harbin: Or like a little segue, a little hoverboard. Okay. That would be amazing.

Colby Harris: They look like goobers.

Jen Harbin: Oh, my gosh. I'm glad. I

Colby Harris:  I saw a video of a guy the day he's like, what the h*** are you riding, bro? Walk around like a normal person. You look like a freaking robot. If I saw you riding up to my door, I'd come out toting my pistol.

Jen Harbin: You'd be like, are you selling silver panels? What's your deal? Yeah. That was fun, though. It was a cool experience because there was nothing left except going to the next door, you know, I mean, that was it.

Colby Harris: And you made 16 grand.

Jen Harbin: I did. I worked very hard.

Colby Harris: Did you know, the whole summer you were like, oh, like, I'm starting to get some momentum. Like, I think I've made some money. And then, like, did you get proof of concept early on, or did you make. Do you make a lot of it on the back end?

Jen Harbin: So you were. Well…. And I was not the best saver. One of the things I'm very grateful for, my husband for teaching me how to react, reroute my mental thinking. As far as money, I, you know, spent a lot of it out there just on, like, junk food and, you know, and not even out there. But then when I got back, I kind of wasted it on, like, going to the Olive Garden. Maybe I should get some furniture for my little apartment. I mean, exactly.

Colby Harris: Like 10,000 a summer is still, like, a lot of money. I mean, we're talking at that time, you're like, a top 1% income earner.

Jen Harbin: Well, there's…. I knew, I knew along the way that I was doing well, because you are, you know, every week you're turning in a report of what your sales are. You're writing your orders. I mean, you are aware of it for sure. You just, you put your head down and just work for six days and then Sunday is your meeting where you kind of regroup, get ready for the next week, you all get together.

And what I loved about it was, even though it was each day was an individual experience. It's like you're talking to people all day, but then it's a huge community experience of the people you're selling books with that you are learning from each other, you're there for each other, you're encouraging each other and you rely on each other.

The accountability of they're out there doing the same thing, that you are all over the place and you're all going through the same experience, even though your days might be different, was really impactful. And even just the families, I mean, I loved at the end of the summer I would go and take like a picture when I was delivering the books and I still have these photo albums and they would write me like a little note like, oh Miss Jen, great time in college. You know, and I mean, these kids are now, which is crazy. They're like out of college. They're probably married with kids because this is before we had kids, of course. This is like 20 years ago. So that was really cool. But I mean, I could talk about selling books for like hours and hours and hours. It was just...

Kevin Butler: Sorry, talk about the law of averages. Like I feel like, mhm, sales is a roller coaster. Yeah. And just explain from your perspective selling books the law of averages. You mentioned you're not a good closer. So how did you make 16 grand if you're not a good closer?

Jen Harbin: That is a great question, Kevin. So the law of averages is, let's say even selling books is kind of a short time. It's only like three months. Even though it seemed like an eternity when you're out there, if you commit to this schedule.

So for example, let's say 07:59 is when we is knocking time. I don't stop knocking till half past nine. Now a lot of us worked even longer hours than those. But let's say that's your schedule. 07:59 to 09:30. And you commit to doing that every day, even if it's raining, even if you're not feeling great, whatever it is, no matter what happens, you are going to be working.

So you might have a day that you go out. And I had these days especially, my second summer when I had people following me. I had a really good week where I sold, like, in a day. I think I made like $800 that first day.

And then the next day somebody followed me because we have people, inexperienced people following to kind of pick up some tips. And I went out. I worked just as hard, the same hours, I did everything the same. And I sold nothing with somebody watching me, which was great. Like, come and learn how to do this job. He's like, gee, thanks. That was awesome. And then…. Or no, this was my third summer that this happened, because the week prior, I'd had my best week ever. I'd sold like 700 units, which I don't know what the profit with that would be, but it's like three grand. Three grand or something.

Okay, so then… then that next week people wanted to follow me. So Monday I go out, I work, I had a great day. He follows me, I... Then the next day I go out by myself again and I have like a good day again. And so over the course of all these days, you're committing to this schedule. You're going to have up days, down days. And then if you think of it like in a bigger sales job, that would be up weeks or months or even years and then down ones. But you're committing to that amount of time.

The law of averages is going to kick in that if you see. And that was one of the things that I really loved about that job is I really saw and they taught us this and I believed it and it was true. Is that the more no's you're willing to hear, the more yeses you're going to hear. That is the law of averages.

And so every time I'd hear another no... again with me, maybe a little bit too much, like, okay, great, bye. Like, okay, well, you could probably push a little further. I was happy to hear the no's, because that just got me closer. There's going to be a yes in there somewhere. Like the pony story, you know, the more Utley pony story. So that really was very helpful.

And I think that did help too, in just in realizing, you know, when I was in college, I was a theater major. And then I changed it to PR, I don't know, or sociology. Then I changed it to PR, which was a terrible idea. And after I sold books, I came back and I…. It's not that I didn't have, you know, arrogance or bravado or pride. I had ton of. I had plenty of that. I did not have genuine, real confidence. I did build a lot of that on the crew team. Like seeing how hard you work at something physically and seeing the fruit of that labor, because there's no way. There's no way to cheat around in a sport. There's no shortcut to getting faster. There's just putting in the work.

And then I was able to gain confidence by selling books. Because what I thought would be my strength was actually kind of a weakness, like my talkativeness and all that. But what I didn't know, I was really afraid of being rejected. I was able to build up tolerance for that, and that is huge. So that was a big one that I gained.

Kevin Butler: Was there any summers you meet Brian?

Jen Harbin: So I met Brian. All right, now we're gonna.

Kevin Butler: Oh, my gosh. We're going into that.

Jen Harbin: I know.

Kevin Butler: Okay, so here's the first thing I want to ask you guys meet. And at that time, there's not, like, technology to keep you connected. What did you guys do to maintain a long distance relationship? I mean, now you got like, FaceTime and you can see each other Snapchat whenever you want.

Jen Harbin: Oh, but there was Kevin. There was a little thing called the computer lab.

Kevin Butler: All right, let's go.

Jen Harbin: So we met and we didn't live in this. You know, he's in Georgia, I'm at Florida. And so I…. And I didn't have a laptop in my room. You would go to the computer lab. So there were phones, but it took an hour and a half to text. You didn't do that back then. So I would go to the computer lab and write them like a. A saucy, witty, charming email. Or at least I thought they were. Right?

And then he would write back an equally witty, charming, and saucy email. And, you know, flirty, not saucy. I don't know. And then you'd have to. You'd have to wait like a day to check because, like, they have to check it. They got to go to the computer lab, check it, and then respond to you. And you don't want to go to the computer lab like, two hours later. Like, there's nothing there. Like, sad. Right? And so we just….

Kevin Butler: He left you undelivered.

Jen Harbin: I know. Exactly. Nothing. You have no messages. You're like….. So we got to know each other via email, and then we did just talk on the phone as well. So the first six months of Our relationship, we were just talking, you know, and we met on a southwestern trip, but he had a girlfriend at the time, so we didn't actually meet until another, like, down the road trip. We met and just started chatting.

And then, you know, we would see each other for like a day or so. And then eventually I moved to Athens, to be in the same city so we could get on each other's nerves. And then, because every time we would see each other, it was like, oh, it's all beautiful rainbows. So we decided to live in the same city for a while, and then we got engaged after that.

Kevin Butler: What do you think that time apart did for your relationship? Like, I can predict some things. I mean, having to communicate that way establishes a really strong foundation of friendship going into the relationship. What…. I mean, what do you think it did for you guys?

Jen Harbin: You just said it perfectly. I think it did establish a good foundation. And it also…. One of the things. When we got married and we went to New Zealand, like, we had to communicate. And because we were long distance at first, because you couldn't, like, see each other and give each other a little smooch and stuff, you really had to focus on just getting to know the person.

Kevin Butler: Yeah.

Jen Harbin: And then the flip side, not the flip side, but another side of that coin is when we were in New Zealand, you know, we were newlyweds. We went and spent, you know, six months there, kind of took our backpacks and traveled around and worked picking grapes and all kinds of various things. Different adventures in New Zealand. Some vacation, some just kind of working, living in a tent and everything in between.

If we would have a, you know, a little fight or something, there was no one to go. You know, you get in a fight and you can immediately call your friend or text your friend and complain about your boyfriend or your girlfriend. Well, we had to go find a computer lab. Here we go back to the computer lab, send a friend an email. You know, find a town that has a computer lab, send an email, maybe get to another town two days later, and then see if our friend has checked in with us to make sure that we know that. I was obviously, I wasn't in the wrong. It was him. He was in the wrong. Right? Yeah. You're gonna tell me what I want to hear because you're my friend, right? Not a good friend to do that.

Kevin Butler: I mean, that's a huge problem in relationships today. So you go to New Zealand and you have…. You're forced to resolve conflict together.

Jen Harbin: Because you're like, well, we're stuck. I mean, so as good as is to have to do that. All you have is the sheep to talk to. Right? And these wonderful people in New Zealand that were just the most magnificent people ever. And that habit has helped us now. You know, not that we don't have fights, it's that we don't, you know, I'm very grateful. I mean, you make it seem very easy to be married because you're so wonderful. That was good, right? You really do. I mean, my husband is amazing. Brownie points. So it's easy. Brownie points. It's easy to be married to you.

And also, you and I are like, have both seen the benefit of, like, if something…. I am very, very lucky in that my husband, he can. I mean, I'm not a good poker player, obviously. Right? Like, my emotions, you can kind of tell when I'm frustrated. And he will not let me go more than like, a day or maybe a few days where he can tell I'm upset about something.

And he will, you know, it's very tempting to just kind of like, sweep it under the rug and let it lie. And he'll be like, when the kids are, like, finally not around, he'll be like, okay, can you, can we talk for a minute? Because he can tell him upset about something, and, you know, a lot of times it's something I'm upset about and maybe I'm actually more in the wrong, you know.

And like you were saying, you have a tendency. We can. If there's one piece of, like, marital advice I could give to people, it's to have a support system. Like you're going to. You meet people who've been married 50 years and they've got great advice, you know, seek them out for that, and they'll tell you things like communicate, you know, stay in love with each other and laugh and all that. And that's all true.

And you really need a support system that's going to hold you accountable to doing the right thing, not to just hearing you out now. I mean, this is withstanding abuse, an abusive relationship, like, full stop. That's a whole…. That is. This is not what I'm talking about.

Kevin Butler: Not deal breakers normal.

Jen Harbin: Those are deal breakers. Like, well, after you're married for a few years, you know, maybe I feel like I'm always wrong. And then you tell your, you know, you tell your family about it, and then they're hearing all these things about this person that they Love. But they're, you know, they're protective of you. And your friends are going to tell you, oh, my gosh, she's such a psycho. And your friends are going to tell you, oh, my gosh, he's such a jerk. Because you're puking your real feelings that are real and, I'm sure, valid and all that.

And at the same time, the issue that you're dealing with is most likely, like, it takes two to tango. Sometimes those issues are really, like, 90% my fault. Maybe they're 90% your fault. Maybe they're 50-50. They're somewhere in there. But they're not, like, 100% anyone's fault usually. You know, Like, God knows that they're not.

And so you need people in your life that you trust that if there really is something going on, it's like something big or, you know, something small. You don't want to talk about your spouse to other people in a negative way, even in, like, a fun context. Like, we're very sarcastic. We love to laugh, you know, so we tease each other. That can get out of hand to an extent. Like, let's imagine you're with, like, a bunch of friends, like, all you guys and your girlfriends, and you're hanging out and you're…. There's a couple there, and, you know, the girl is, like, really, you know, emasculating the guy, or the guy is, like, really just stepping all over, you know, like, being really not kind to the girl, you know. Either way you see them not treating each other well, you have a tendency. You can go, oh, this is uncomfortable.

So I'll kind of make fun of you, like, teasing you a little. And that can be, like, a really dangerous cycle. Not that you want to be a couple in that group that's saying, oh, my gosh, everything. You're just so amazing, you know, in front of people. Right? Like, don't you guys want to be like us? We're like the perfect couple. Right? That is equally bizarre and not healthy. Right?

But you really want to be. You really want, like, a group of friends and support, whether it's your family, your church, your just friends, friends that you could go to privately and be like, look, we're really struggling with this because they will let you talk about it. And if they're a good friend. I've had this happen to me where a friend where we had gone through some things, and a good friend of mine from church was like, you know, was saying, are you. Because I knew that she loved me.

Are you…. Have you considered that you might be coming across like this? Have you considered that your attention elsewhere is doing this, like really like a mirror to you of like, if someone's going to help you work through a relationship issue, more than likely it's something that you should be working on in yourself, not and. And the other person does at the same time. So that's usually a good place to start, at least, if that makes any sense.

Kevin Butler: Sorry.

Jen Harbin: Not that I'm a therapist, but, you know.

Colby Harris: You've been married 20 years, so…

Jen Harbin: Oh yeah, we're about to be 20 years since like….

Colby Harris: Is it 20 this year?

Jen Harbin: Yeah. When Stone turns 18 or 20th….

Kevin Butler: 2005.

Jen Harbin: That wild. That's so crazy.

Colby Harris: I was a little baby.

Jen Harbin: You were. I got pictures of Colby when we were engaged and he was just a little…. He was just a little stinker then. I love it.

Kevin Butler: What do you think's been really crucial about being together for 20 years? I mean, you talked about coming from a wild family, growing up.

Colby Harris: Mhm.

Kevin Butler: And now you guys have been together 20 years. I mean, how did those experiences shape you into making a big commitment? Like marriage?

Jen Harbin: That's a good question. So because I guess I came from…. And again, I understand, like there's no judgment, people…. I've lived through several divorces, so am I personally not a big fan of it? I also, you know, have tons of people in my life who I deeply love, who that was the right path for them. And I don't hold any judgment for them in that at all. I really, I don't know, I think I just wanted. And I also had so many examples of good marriages growing up in front of me that I really wanted to…. I wanted that for myself. And I just knew whenever I did get married, you know, that it's a marathon, not a sprint. Like we joke, you know, death is the finish line. Right?

I mean, the finish line is hopefully like eternity after this life with God and each other. You know that it's not that there are deal breakers. There are hard deal breakers that you need to have to….. As a healthy boundary. And at the same time that when we get into it and it gets tough, we're not going to bail. We're going to put whatever energy we might be trying to put into other things in our lives. We're going to put that energy into us. And that takes a lot of work and commitment. And I remember, that just…. Just that…. Yeah, yeah.

Colby Harris: Then you want to have three kids. And then that shakes it all.

Jen Harbin: I know. Yeah, it's all fun and games and you start adding some kids in the mix and it like whatever your Achilles heel, you know, that maybe you haven't really faced yet. God finds a way to, I think, incorporate parts of your personality into each of however many kids you have.

Well, you will see glimpses of yourself, your spouse, and other own individual people. You really see, like, all the stuff that you just never even imagined you would need to work on. Like, they just find a way to whether it's something that you, you know, I mean, you know, our sweet firstborn is so like me in the sense of when he, you know, loses items and things that I mean, he gets that completely from me. So every time I'm like, where are your keys? I gave you a hook for your keys. I'm like talking to myself because I know how frustrating it is, you know, so it's like, right, that's just like a mirror.

Kevin Butler: Well, let's back it up a little bit. Let's go. Come back from New Zealand, settling down in Jacksonville. I mean, what did you. How did your early career start? When did the mom life begin? Kind of walk us through that.

Jen Harbin: I started off at working at a touch free technology company called Sanador. And I did that. You know, the early me would have in college, so hard. I mean, the younger me is just so embarrassing. I mean, the arrogance, it's just the pride, it's just crazy. Would have looked at someone that wanted, that knew they wanted to be a stay at home mom for when they were young or even in college or. You know, their joke would be, I'm just in college to get my Mrs. Degree. The younger me would have completely laughed at that and said, oh, oh, that's so cute. Oh…. Do you not have any goals? Are you not educated? Like, what is that your whole, you know, I complete.

And at the same time, I knew when I had kids I wanted to be there after school, I wanted to be there with them, right? But, you know, I couldn't really get…. [Crosstaklk]

Colby Harris: You are a working, mom.

Jen Harbin: I…. Well, I didn't know if I wanted to be working. I knew like when they were little, I wanted to be at home, like taking care of them after school. But I never…. I just also thought people that that was what they wanted to do when they grew up. You know, this is like the feminist movement. Like if I had a daughter and she wanted to be a nuclear physicist, I would encourage her to do so. You know, we have all sons. But I would, I really would.

At the same time, the fact that women can, can decide what they want to do, I think it's unfortunate that they have been given this pressure of that is actually there's so much value and fulfillment and joy in being a stay at home mom. Like even a, joke now that that's, I'll just straight up say I'm a stay at home mom. I'm not bored, plenty busy, you know.

Kevin Butler: What's the hardest job in the world?

Jen Harbin: And lots of jobs are super hard. And moms that work are great moms too. I know many of them that follow that are doctors and are amazing parents that I wish I learned so much from. So I just wish that women had more support as far as if they do want to do that, they see that as that there is value in that and that there's fulfillment and that they see how important it is, like you said, raising human beings. But….

Kevin Butler: What advice would you give to, you know, a fresh mom, new mom, newborns, toddlers, early years.

Jen Harbin: That's got to be the hardest, I would say, is just be good to yourself, find a support network again, like your church, for sure, your spouse and be…. I remember, you know, when you first have a baby, you're… your hormones are all over the place. It takes you nine months to, you know, you're growing this little person inside of you, and then there's a huge shift in your whole body right afterwards.

And that can last for a long time. I mean, women don't talk about postpartum depression because they think like, is this… is this something that's clinical? I need to actually see a physician. That might be the case and it might be just like the baby blues, you know, but really being okay with like listening to yourself and saying like, I'm not okay. I mean, I went through a period of time where I remember telling you, I was like, I'm just not right. And this was after Max was born. I never got like a clinical diagnosis of it. And I don't think that's what it was. I think it was just a really extreme version. I did find out that I had a thyroid issue, which happened after he was born. And so that played into it as well, but my body was all over the place, which affected my mood.

And I remember this is when he was still traveling for selling insurance. And so he would be gone for like a week. I remember saying to him, I need you to call me every day and, like, check on me. And it wasn't that I was like, I'm gonna hurt myself or the kid. I just was like, I'm just not right. And I don't know. I don't know what to do. I just… I knew I wasn't myself. And that can be very scary. And it can just be exhausting. When you are a new mom, I mean, you know it's gonna be exhausting, but it can be so overwhelming. You're not getting enough sleep, and you feel bad that you're not maybe enjoying that time. What if you have to go back to work because you can't afford to be at home?

What if you can afford it, but you really, you know, you're a neurosurgeon or you're a teacher, or you are going back to work because that's your choice. And you are influencing lives. You know, you're impacting people in your job, and you love your job, and that… that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. I know so many moms that thought they'd stay home. They work, and they found amazing people to love their kids. Like, you know, they… I mean, so they have a great situation. But you have to be able… I do think it's good to allow yourself to express how you're feeling. Like, say, this is… I'm not okay. And that's all right, because you… you just need… you need some support, and it's okay to not be okay. And it's a short period of time. It'll… you know.

Kevin Butler: Yeah.

Jen Harbin: This, too, shall pass unless it is something that a doctor needs to see you about. But allow yourself to do that.

Kevin Butler: Well, walk me through in your head, firstborn, like, how you viewed yourself. I mean, it's got to be terrifying. Like, I'm scared to become a dad and be like, am I doing this right? Am I a good dad?

Jen Harbin: Yeah.

Kevin Butler: So, like, going through all that, the depression, the crazy change in hormones, I mean, how did you… how did you guys get through that?

Jen Harbin: Well, I'll say that the dads who aren't good dads don't question am I a good dad? They don't care. The fact that you are, you know, I know you, Kevin. You're going to be reading all the books. You're going to be listening. You're going to be getting advice, and that's amazing. You're going to be a fantastic dad. You are going to be a fantastic dad. I'm not worried about that at all. You guys will be phenomenal fathers. I have no doubt in my mind.

And you, you know, this might be comforting that, you know, everyone that's alive on earth has been born. Like, you know, like this has gone on for a long time. We've been creating people and creating more, and you're going to do great. You know, everyone's had a dad, everyone's had a mom. They might not their entire lives, but…. exactly. And you're going to do great.

And just the fact that you want to, you know, nowadays, I mean, we joke now that like, back when our parents there was just like, keep them alive, keep them fed, and that's good. And now there's a million books on, like, I mean, everything from like, how do we sleep train and how do we teach them these skills? And I mean, everything that there is like, you know, what about the teething and what's the schedule of this? Like, there's so much information that you'll take it all in. And a lot of it is your guys instincts are great.

Kevin Butler: But did you trust yourself when what's going through your headboard? He's like, a… you know, in diapers, walking around. It's like, oh, am I doing this right?

Colby Harris: Probably a lot different than when Charles was born. You catch Charles like 2 1/2 ft in dirt and putting Legos. See how many Legos you can fit in this mouth.

Jen Harbin: I joked with this the other day with Stone M. Because he's like, he had caught his, you know, which is one of the funniest things about parenting. You know, when they become like older teenagers and Stone is really at a phase, which is so funny. I really like him again, like, I used to just… I liked him as a little kid playing with him.

And then they go through the teenage phase and you're like, I always love you, but I do not like you all the time right now. And I really like him. And then he'll have these moments where he walks in and he… and he's kind of right. Also obnoxious, where he'll say, mom, this is ridiculous. This is out of control. Yeah, look at this. He's watching YouTube. He's eating Cheetos. I mean, and you know, I mean, get it together, basically. He doesn't say those words to me, but that's the effect he's trying to, you know, give me.

And I say, you know what, Stone? I'm sorry, you're right. You got the three Bs. You got Beethoven, beets and books, and that was it. You weren't… I mean, I. And I even made, you know, I'm making all the food. I'm making the oats and the… and all this, and it's all organic. And Charles is, you know, eating Cheetos off the floor watching South Park. Right? Not really, but you know what I mean. Well, maybe sometimes…

Kevin Butler: Sometimes God knows what they watch on YouTube.

Jen Harbin: I mean, this is true. And I think that… you know, it's not like… like, I go, yeah, you're welcome. That my good parenting was wasted on you. Cause with each kid, you have a less. You know, everyone has their own things.

Kevin Butler: Yeah.

Jen Harbin: But… yeah, you're super nervous about everything. I was really, really blessed that, you know, I mean, Brian's mom is like Mary Poppins. She's so much fun. Like, anytime they go to spend time with Emmy or she comes over, it's like… I mean, like, it is. She's Mary Poppins, plus, like, an athlete, like, all put together. And my mom and my aunt, when Stone was born, were so, again, like, so unconditional. Like, my family, maybe too much unconditional love. Like, no matter what I could do, what any of us could do, they are always there to support. I mean, you know, where I have to, like, just unconditional.

And my aunt, who is, you know, my sister and my brother, who are really my… like, they're my cousins, but they didn't know till they were older that they were my cousins. I mean, I still call them my sister and brother. I consider them my sister and brother. And that's not to diminish my brother or my mom, but the relationship that I have with them is that my uncle is Grandpa. He is their grandfather. He's the one who pours into them. You know, Gammy is Gammy, and she's their other grandmother. And when they were there, I mean, they came and stayed with us.

I remember my mom came and stayed. My aunt came and stayed. You, you know, Gammy came and stayed, and she would just walk, you know, in that really vulnerable time, she was there just taking care of him, taking care of me.

And so I do think, especially when you have a new one and it's your first, it's so important to take care of yourself in the sense that, like, when you guys get married and your wives are having theirs is whatever she needs, your job is to take care of her. The baby will be taken care of, because that's all she's doing is pouring herself into this baby. So you don't need to worry about your son or your daughter. They'll be fine. You need to make sure your wife is okay.

So if she says, I don't want anyone staying with us, that could be the situation. She might want your mom to come stay. She might not. And that's okay. It's a very short time. So whatever she needs, if she knows that you're there supporting her, that she can crash and, like, be herself, then she'll feel free to tell you if there is something going on that, you know, that she's like, I shouldn't feel like this, or I shouldn't or whatever it is. You are her rock. That's your job. And you do a really good job of this.

So I've been really lucky. I've been really blessed in that. And, you know, with each kid, it changes, because then when you have another one, you may not want someone there as long. You might, you know, and Brian's mom came to stay with us, and, you know, I mean, and it's just. It's just different, each one. But you just be the rock.

Colby Harris: Yeah. So, I mean, you've… You get married, all three boys, of course, which, yeah, it's definitely been. It's definitely been fun to watch the ascension, in a way of, like, all three of them, because I'm the youngest of three boys, so I understand what it's like to be like Charles basically. I mean, Chase never stops yapping, my oldest brother, about the whole what leeway I get. And I can only imagine what's coming, you know, for Charles by the time he gets to be in Stone's age. But three… the three kids, Brian, you know, left the brokerage, and the original insurance brokerage started the domain brokerage. And, you know, you guys decided to bring this whole grit.org and Grit University, Grit Camp vision to life.

And so, I think that, you know, everything that you've talked about tells a lot of the story of why you guys do what you do with, you know, the camp and the internship, this podcast, everything. And just your passion for people. Right? And helping other people. But I think so much of what people don't see is what we all kind of experienced over the years behind the scenes and everything that goes into it.

And if you want to briefly talk about what you love about, I'd love to hear, but frankly, I know why you love it. Because we love it. Like, we all know the positive that comes with being around kids and serving a purpose higher than yourself. But the challenges as well, that now the three kids, the two decade long marriage, and hey, by the way, we're going to take on running a 400 person summer camp for eight weeks every single summer. What do you feel like has been the biggest reward? And then what is, like, how do you battle the challenges that come with that?

Jen Harbin: That's a good question. The biggest reward is like this for sure. I'm going to like tear up. So, you know, I mean, seeing you guys, I mean, it's so funny because I mean, you're so much more… you're like so much more grown than when this started. Of course, like, you're… you know, this successful career man. That's… it's like just. I know, it's just… well, I just… I'm so… I don't know. I don't… look, I'm so proud of you guys. Your moms are proud of you. I am proud of you. I'm just so inspired by you guys and I'm just so happy for you. You're both kicking.

I mean, I just… I'm just so excited for both of you and I'm so grateful that we got the time with you and got to, you know, just provide an opportunity that you took and ran with it and developed. You know, that's just like the framework. But you guys did all the work on yourselves for the kids, you know, mentoring the counselors. I just loved… I'm so grateful that I got to be a part of it. Even just like brings… I just love being able to watch that. It was just so cool.

And of course, for the kids, I love watching, you know, the kids that were campers and then keep coming back because you guys made it so fun and so much. I mean, it's just so amazing in every way. And then they want to come back as counsel, junior counselors and counselors, and watching the kids that get there, that love playing the sports, that challenge us.

All right, or the kids that don't want to be outside that, you know, they discovered they could actually… they could play a sport for 10 minutes and maybe that was like me and everything in between. I just love watching that growth of what the kids, the teenagers, especially you guys, like, what's your next level? You know, because you're not like, okay, now we're done. It's like there's your comfort zone, and then you build another comfort zone, and then once you hit that, you got to build another one and then another one, and that you're constantly growing. I love that. And the challenge would be dismissal.

Kevin Butler: Especially when it rains.

Jen Harbin: Oh, it rains. Dismissal.

Colby Harris: Or maybe, like, when we lose a kid and someone has to call a mom and say, oh, hey, we misplaced little Bobby. Bobby came home today. He got very lost.

Jen Harbin: He did.

Colby Harris: What are you talking about?

Jen Harbin: He… oh, he walked home. You're like, wait, what? Yeah, I mean, the challenges are all just those silly things, but…

Colby Harris: I mean, it's funny to hear you talk about, because it is….. It's like… I mean, there's… you did the whole… you did the Gin thing right there, where you were like, what is it that we… that we love? It's like, well, it's like, all about all of us. Ultimately. Which is why I started by saying, like, it's like, I know. We know that. That's what's so important to you is, like, even just bringing it back right now to all of us. And, like, what you… what you get out of it. And then the challenge being so minute amongst it all, like, I guess it's…

Jen Harbin: Well, but, you know, because you guys have seen me in my psycho. I mean, you have. I feel like you have seen… I feel like, you know me. Like, you've seen the good, the bad, the ugly, the crazy. Like, in the moment where I can't get a handle on the dismissal, and Brian is so good. He's so up. He's like, all right, we're not… we're not going to make any of these moms wait. Like, they're… if they're here, we're getting the kid out. And I'm like, they can wait. I sit in car lines all the time. I have to sit and wait. No one's starting it. I mean, I get… my control freakness comes out.

My number… my two on the Enneagram goes straight to… what is it? Nine. Goes straight to nine. I'm like, no, I'm freaking out. And, like, that's where, you know, I could… the, you know, the Grit Creed. The one that always stands out to me, because I am not… and I'm working on it. It's a lifelong process. I am not calm, cool, or collective. And I am at times.

Kevin Butler: Most of the time.

Jen Harbin: Most of the time, I can be. But in those times where I'm like, where are the children? Where's their car? Where's… I get, like, totally… well, there's, like, a control freak.

Kevin Butler: There's a Gen version of cool comics, right?

Jen Harbin: Yeah.

Colby Harris: You just pinpoint it so fast, though. I was over here, kind of actually, you know, married, the three kids, the… all the challenges that could come with that, and then say, yeah, hey, this whole, like, we're going to take on this whole new project startup mode, and really have no idea what we're doing. We're going to deal with Colby and Kevin and Jack or Christian, whoever it's been through this process. And the biggest challenge is the pickup line.

Jen Harbin: I mean, that's right, because I go full crazy in the pickup line. But you've made it really easy. I will say, you know, and the other challenge is true, and this is not false humility. So please don't say no, you're good at this. And I've told him this in, like, our private moments, is that it's hilarious that in my mind, this camp brings out, like, all of my… the things that… like, the skills. I think I'm not… there are lots of skills I bring to the table, and yet the ones that I feel like I'm not great at get brought up.

So I love working with young people. I used to have small groups, and I would love… but we would meet and they would, you know, we would talk about God and how he's working in our lives, and they'd tell me their problems, and I could just sit and encourage them. Right. And I love that. And, you know, watching them grow, and now they're getting married and they have babies and stuff. I love that. And yet… and then the other way in which I would, you know, kind of help or mentor younger people is selling books. I had already done that job.

So if I'm listening to you puke about your problems and trying to show you, like, lead by example, it's because I've already done what I'm asking you to do. And in this, I'm… it was the weirdest place for me to be because even though, I mean, I'm around kids all the time, we have the, you know, the little kids are fine. But working with the counselors is a huge challenge for me because I'm not in a capacity to be their mentor. Like, I'm going to be doing the same… I'm going to be out there playing soccer. Like, you know, I'm not… no, no. Here. Okay. You guys go with Coach Kevin and Coach Colby. You guys go with Thomas and Eleanor, and they're going to go play lacrosse with you. I'm not doing what they're doing. And I'm also not in a position to… like, I want to connect with them, but there's like two minutes where I can, like, how are you doing?

And so it was, like, bringing up a huge thing, a challenge for me, because I'm kind of like their boss. Like, with the counselors, I'm having to just make sure that everyone's getting where they need to go. And so it was just… it was just way out of my comfort zone of learning to do that. And, you know, trying to be fair, of course, but not really being able to impact them. Because I love the young people that we work with. I think they're so great. And I think I was able to kind of communicate with them that… with them in the summer enough. Because in the day, there's just… it's like being a mom, there's just not enough time to really get it done. So that's a huge… that was a huge challenge that we're still working on.

Kevin Butler: You say there's not enough time, and then you're involved with team sports, the church. I mean, every organization outside of what we do at Grit. I mean, why is it so important for you to be so involved in the community?

Jen Harbin: I just… I don't know. I love it. I feel blessed that the community's given us so much. Like, the school my kids go to is so wonderful. The church that we are a part of are so wonderful that it's just like a pay it forward, you know. Like, I feel as though my, you know, cup has been full and I got to just keep, you know, paying it forward, too. I just think… and I want my kids to… I love what Elise Felucca said when she came in here for her interview.

And I see this in her kids that… you know her. That she wants her kids to work hard and be kind. Like, that's their… their family motto. And it's true. I want the same for mine. I want them to… and I also want to be there, you know. Like, I want to be involved. And I think I will not ever… there is all kinds of times where I'm like, well, I may not have time to spruce myself up, you know, or whatever, but I'm never gonna look back when I'm older on the time that I spent, you know, being a team mom or going to have lunch with Charles. Cause he still lets me go have lunch with him. Max is like, oh. I'm like, you want me to come have lunch with you? He's like, I'm good. Thanks. That's okay. You're good. He's like sixth grade. I'm like, too cool for… I'm too cool for you.

But I'm never gonna regret the time I've spent doing that. I just won't. I'm not gonna look back and go, I wish I had spent more time, you know, at the spa. Yeah. Not that people spend their days being at the spa, but I'm not gonna regret the time I poured into these things because I'm hoping it pours into others and that they will pour into others.

Colby Harris: How do you measure all of it? Because I think that's something me and Kevin are starting to work through now especially, and we don't even have families or anything. But measuring your yeses and your nos and, you know, when I call Kevin trying to go lift or play basketball and he's got a FaceTime with his girlfriend or whatever it looks like, you know, there's measurements that are always happening. And same for me. Kevin will be like, hey, let's do this thing. I say, no. Saturdays are for golf. We're golfing. Go golfing with me or you stay at home.

Jen Harbin: Hey, that's good though. Like that. You carve that. Okay, that's gon… and maybe not the golf… like, not… maybe not as much of a golf day when you're… when you have like a wife and kids, but that you're carving that out and that you're preserving it. Because I have struggled with that before many times. Like, being a recovering people pleaser, you know, that's why crew was so great. I'm not competitive at all, but I am a total people pleaser.

So I'm like, I don't want to be letting the bill. Like, we all going to be doing the same thing. I'm not going to be the weakling here, you know, so those… that's really important when you get… because now you have more free time, so to speak. But you guys fill it with all kinds of different things.

And even though when you have less later on, your commitment to those things that are like, you know, your non-negotiable times would be doing something for your wife. And if that's your outlet and you need to golf to make sure that you're the healthy version of yourself, not spending the entire weekend golfing, disregarding your family, but for you, you're disciplined enough that that will be here. I'm carving out my golf time. And this is sacrosanct. And I'm gonna do it. Like you… Brian goes on a walk every night. He, you know, he walks, and it's where he's brainstorming, and that's a very healthy thing for him to do.

And he, you know, obviously, when we have different sports, sometimes he can't. Sometimes he has to adjust, but he really… and he carves out his workout time. And so those things are really important. Recently I've had to start saying I say no to things because in my mind now I'm like, I used to say yes to everything.

And then sometimes our family would suffer as a result of that because I… we would still get the same stuff done, but I'd be kind of done and spent and not have enough energy left for my family. And so recently, our youth minister, who's amazing, has finally moved on to the next phase of her life, and she's still just as busy serving God and people. And she is no longer our youth minister. We do have an interim one right now. Long term, we'll probably need another one. And she approached me, and I have a tendency to go, I don't know.

Well, maybe. Okay. Maybe I can make this work. And, you know, I prayed about it and all that, and I knew that, like, that would not be good for our family if I went down that road. And I was like, I can't. And so that was… that's a big example of something. But there's things like now, even at school, where I'm doing this, this and this. I can't do that. You can't do everything all the time. And that's okay. You can pick what you can do. Everyone has a different schedule, different skills, different things they enjoy doing. So you can pick, but keep those things that are really important. Like the big… the big… you know, there's like the big rocks.

Colby Harris: Like, measure what matters really at the end of the day. 

Jen Harbin: Yes.

Colby Harris: Make those.

Jen Harbin: Those are your big rocks. Measure the matter. Measure what matters. Then the smaller rocks can be other thing. And then the sand is all the fun stuff. Yes. It's a struggle, but you just got to keep… but just do it. And I'm sorry. Wow, we have gone way over. I'm so sorry.

Kevin Butler: Well, you know what we gotta ask. Always gotta end with the best question. What part of the Grit Creed resonates most with you?

Jen Harbin: And why…. I can. I will. I'm going to. Is my mantra in the face of adversity.

Kevin Butler: I think we just heard that.

Jen Harbin: Yeah. That is definitely… I mean, it's not something that I'm like an expert at, but I do that. I say it a lot to myself and, you know, many, with few exceptions, I feel like, you know, whether it's, we're going to get you to school on time or, you know, we're going to figure this out. Camp looked different this year than it did last year. We had no interns. It was a whole different experience for us. Not being able to just be there backing someone up that was running the whole… was us. It's a whole different experience to… you know, anything really. Just anything. That is definitely the one that I think speaks to me.

Kevin Butler: Can't, won't — not in the vocabulary.

Jen Harbin: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

Colby Harris: Before we leave, who actually wrote the Grit Creed? Was that you or did you guys sit down one night and just come up with this whole…

Jen Harbin: Well, really…

Kevin Butler: They plagiarized the Bible.

Jen Harbin: Exactly. Really. It's…

Colby Harris: That's what popped up.

Jen Harbin: Really. Really. We… we didn't… we didn't make it. We… we just compiled things that we have been exposed to that we really feel we learned from. Things that impacted us, things that we still try to remember to do. So we didn't write it. We just picked some of our favorites. And we got them from all different places.

I mean, for sure, sport. You know, I would say crew, selling books had a lot to do with it, and just our life experiences together. Definitely the program. You know, the Serenity Prayer from that. And just… yeah. Like, that's what I think… that's what we really like about it is we can't take credit for it. We didn't come up with it. We just benefited from it, and we really want to pass it along to others. Yeah. So.

Colby Harris: Well, I love it, because I'm even in my “I am” statements phase right now. Little like Tony Robbins thing.

Jen Harbin: Oh, nice.

Colby Harris: Obviously the whole Grit Creed is just basically “I am,” and it's something I've gotten into recently. So I'm kind of implementing some of them as well. But, well, we could do this all day. I know. Of course, like, we've… we finally made this happen. And I know, Jen, as soon as we sat down, you were talking about where you have to be. Kevin, we're all already like, hey, what's… like, you know, going back to the calendar.

Jen Harbin: But we are gonna have to finish this at dinner at our house again, just without this going on.

Colby Harris: Yeah.

Kevin Butler: You don't want to record dinner?

Colby Harris: Yeah. It feels like get sneezed on by Charles. Little spit on your pasta.

Jen Harbin: Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Colby Harris: Those are some of my favorite stories because I'm just not used to the kids. But I know if you're the camera, you could say something if you want. I just know you.

Jen Harbin: Oh.

Kevin Butler: I was just going to say it's my favorite part about going over to the Hares is Charles and Max never finish their food. And I'm always… I'm always grabbing the leftover pizza.

Jen Harbin: Yeah. I'm telling you.

Colby Harris: But they are a lot of good times. Yeah. It feels like being back together, you know, at dinner. And I know we're all just super grateful for you. I feel like this has been such a long time coming to be able to do this, and I was, like, very excited. So many things going on, like everyone else. And it was really quite nice coming in this morning. Just be like, oh, this would be good to talk about Jen and Jen's life, because you're around three people that are always doing different things, and you're always asking what we're doing and how you can support.

And I feel like that's like that for everyone, whether it's my girlfriend who you've known for so long, or my family and everybody. So I think we're all super grateful, and I think this episode can be super valuable to other people that are either in a similar position as you or someone that would be like a counselor and looking to figure out what their life might look like or what they could plan for, right? Ultimately.

So, with that being said, we just… we love you and we appreciate you so much. And, you know, Brian, all of you—super lucky. Super lucky guy. And your boys, I hope they listen to this and know how much of a rock star you are, because I know being a… all of us, I think we all kind of undermine until you get to about mine and Kevin's age, where you're like, d***, my mom is the biggest rock star I've ever known. You know?

Jen Harbin: I love that you both say that about your moms. And I do, I hope… yeah, I teased my kids a little in this, so I hope they do know. I love them. I love each of you so much. You're my most precious things in the whole world. And I do everything I do for the three of you. I love you all. So hope they know that.

Colby Harris: Yeah, y'all get a good life.

Jen Harbin: That's right.

Colby Harris: D*** good life.

Jen Harbin: You give Caroline a hug for me. I just love her so much.

Colby Harris: Well, all right. So that is going to close out. Jen, thank you again so much about the vision and everything that's come together here. Brian, thanks for having me and Kevin back. And still doing first of every month, so be on the lookout for more episodes to come. Thank you again to escrow.com and everyone at home for tuning in for another episode of the Grit.org podcast.